李磊谈艺录

（刘晶晶整理）

 

·我的道

刘：六朝王微认为：“图画非止艺行，成当与易象同体。”如此说来，绘画应该成为像《易经》中的“象”一样理解和传达自然的一种手段，而不是单纯的技艺。而《易经》可以说是“抽象”了大千世界的一部终极作品。
李：其实这是在讲艺术创造的“与道同机”，即要求画家创造一个体现了万物生成变化法则又可使精神逍遥其中的艺术世界。画家把握有限又超越有限，顺乎自然又讲求创造，状物精微又不“心为物役”。在人与社会的关系上，具有真实的人文意识；在人与自然的关系上，则是“天人一体”、“物我两忘”，既顺应又超越的意识。《易经》的“刚健、笃实、辉光”，代表了一种很健全而且可贵的美学思想。如何“致广大尽精微”又“超以象外”，这都是艺术家应该从《易经》中学习的。

刘：你有一个水墨抽象系列叫作《道》。你在寻找，或者说实践“两极融合”：用直条或十字条彩纸粘贴在水墨画面上，创造了一种力场。符号具有指向性，又以包括点、线、面、色的动态组合和即兴画痕创造出富有人文意蕴和音乐内涵的意境，引发人们对于生命意义的思想。你一直醉心于中国哲学中的道与禅，近作亦更加表现为一种对于绘画艺术的本质直观和对于当代艺术的图像世界的反省，这些研究已经超越了简单的抽象与具像的形式概念，而是向艺术本质的敞开。
李：绘画对我来说是自我拨脱的修行，也是自我解放的手段。
 艺术家创造的形象是“实”，引起观者想象或者“神游”的是“虚”，由形象产生的意象境界就是虚实的结合，虚实结合的思想，是中国传统艺术的一个特点。以虚带实，以实带虚，虚中有实，实中有虚，虚实结合，这是中国美学思想中的核心问题。虚和实的问题，也是一个哲学宇宙观的问题。老庄认为“虚”比“真实”更真实，是一切真实的原因，没有虚空存在，万物就不能生长。儒家思想则从实出发，孔子讲“文质彬彬”，内部结构和外部表现兼顾。孟子也说“充实之谓美。”但是孔孟也并不停留于实，而是要从实到虚，发展到神妙的意境：“充实而有光辉之谓大，大而化之之谓圣，圣而不可知之之谓神。”圣而不可知之，就是虚：只能体会，不能可解说，不能摹仿，谓之神。所以儒道都认为宇宙是虚和实的结合，也就是《易经》上的阴阳结合。世界是变化着的，而变化的世界对我们最显著的表现，就是有生有灭，有虚有实，万物在虚空中流动、运化，所以老子说：“有无相生”，“虚而不屈，动而愈出”。这种宇宙观表现在艺术上，就要求艺术也必须虚实结合，才能真实地反映世界。而在抽象艺术领域，艺术家虽然把形象化为抽象，但情感和意境是一样的，因为那是画作背后本质的东西。唯有以实为虚，化实为虚，才能产生无穷的意味和幽远的境界。清人笪重光《画荃》说：“实景清而空景现”，“虚实相生，无画处皆成妙境”。《道》系列是尝试用水墨来做一个哲学意象与意境的虚实探索。

刘：你自己对于“道”的解释和体认是什么呢？
李：老子《道德经》：“其中有精，其精甚真。”“质真若渝。”这种“真”，儒家谓之为“诚”。《中庸》认为人的“诚”的本性是天所赋予的，遵循真实的人性就是道，培养这个道就是教的本义。因此人对待天的基本方法就应在人自身的结构中去寻找。完全外在于人的结构的先验既是不可想象的，也与人的终极目的毫不相关。在艺术中，西方人也明显地注意到这一点。钱钟书《谈艺录》中引西方文献：“克洛岱尔(Paul Claudel)谓吾人性天中，有妙明之神(anima ou l'ame)，有智巧之心(animus ou l'esprit)；诗者、神之事，非心之事，故落笔神来之际(inspiration)，有我(moi)在而无我(ji)执，皮毛落尽，洞见真实，与学道者寂而有感、感而遂通之境界无以异(un etat mystique)。神秘诗秘(le mystere potique)，其揆一也。艺之极致，必归道原，上诉真宰，而与造物者游。”人相对于天是微观的，天道也会在人道之中呈现，这个世界乃至宇宙，是一个全息的构成，而道则是其中最终极的规则。
 即使是一草一木，也都蕴含着“宇宙意识”，而宇宙意识，即《易经》的“万有含生论”：大生机，蓬勃生气，盎然充满，创进生生不息，宇宙万有，秉性而生，复又参赞化育，适以周成性体之大全，所谓“造化”。“造化”、“生意”也成为画家表现的最高目标。张载在《横渠易说》卷三中指出：乾坤，天地也；易，造化也。圣人之意，莫先乎要识造化，既识造化，然后（有）[其]理可穷。彼惟不识造化，以为幻妄也。不见《易》则何以知天道？不知天道则何以语性？
 丁皋《写真秘诀》也将周易“无极”、“太极”的理论在画论之中发挥得淋漓尽致：“写真一事，须知意在笔先，气在笔后。分阴阳，定虚实……立浑元一圈，然后分上下，以定两仪，按五行而奠五岳，设施既定，浩乎沛然，充实辉光，轩昂纸上，谓之气在笔后。”“画像先作一圈，即太极无极之始，消息甚大，如混沌未开，乾坤未奠，而此中天高地下，万物散殊，活泼泼地，气象从此氤氲出来，则当未圈之先，必先以己之灵光与人之眉宇，互相凝结，然后因物赋物各肖其神。”随后他又就面相与宇宙秩序与原理之间的联系，更说明了人脸犹如宇宙结构，也跟大自然一样，在宇宙间完成各种蜕变，并含有这种蜕变的痕迹。
 我认为这个世界是圆融、通透的，生命也一样。所谓一顺百顺，我们就是要通过学习、思考、磨砺找到和顺应宇宙、人生内在的规律。我们的创作过程是在跟宇宙沟通，和宇宙的规律契合，从而进入身心顺畅通达的境界。好的作品是无法言说的，但观者必定会感觉到那种扑面而来的一种力量。圆融、通透、生命激荡的东西一定会在画中体现。
 小的时候，我时常在梦里飞翔。飞起来忽高忽低、忽左忽右，山川林木在下面倏倏地掠过，有时还会见到些个琼楼玉宇，十分真切；后来我又梦见许多好看的颜色，那颜色来自于深邃而澄澈的海，海里面浮游着巨大的生物，我也沉浸在其中；再后来我梦见一位老师将我带进佛家寺院，他让我跪在一幅横设案头的锦画前磕头，我照作了。磕完头我向锦画偷偷地瞄了一眼，那竟是幅耶稣的头像。我惊诧地问老师：“这不是基督教吗？”老师说：“那有什么不同！”我忽有所悟。
 我并不创造什么，但是我想呈现出什么，这种呈现是我自己心理的历程，或者是我思想的历程，我希望通过一定的方式，把自己的思想表达出来。抽象的和有形象的对我来说是没有区别的，我都是通过一个形象——有形的形象和无形的形象来呈现我内心的感受。因为在不同的时间和空间我都会有不同的思想率动，我的作品只是记录那些率动的片段，就象心电图，就象反光镜，它反射出的是我认识世界的角度和层次，抑或说是境界。用什么方式表现对我来说并不重要，重要的是要把想“说”的“说”清楚。
 也许，这就是“道”在我身上的体现吧。

刘：看你的画让我想到西藏密宗的“坛城”。你的画就像一个“坛城”，是一个汇聚能量的场。“坛城”的每一条线，每一个图形，每一个颜色都是有象征意义，表达了宇宙的内在结构，你的画似乎也同样呈现出一种同宇宙相沟通的状态。从《禅花》系列到《人文山水》系列，我看到你已经打开画面，进入没有界限的时态。
李：第一次有人用“坛城”来说我的画。说到“坛城”，的确，它蕴涵着极其精深微秒的哲学含义。
 曾经有个行为艺术作品：两位藏传佛教的僧人，用五色细沙精心构筑一个巨型的坛城，经过很长时间的努力一个精美绝伦的坛城呈现在了我们眼前，就在人们赞不绝口的时候，僧人伸手将坛城搅毁，收起零落的彩沙，扬场去了……我十分感慨。人生如是，纵然百般执著，最终一切的努力都将归于乌有。对于一般人来说，命运是不可知的，因为不可知，所以不可控制；因为不可控制，所以惟有逆来顺受。于是悲怆万分。
 然而作为艺术家，我希望找到一个超脱的途径，从不可控制的命运中发现一条缝隙。于是我尝试着体会和再现生命过程中每一个闪亮的瞬间，因此对于我来说，艺术创作就是我“直观的生命体验”。
 
 
刘：“直观的生命体验”应该来自于人的直觉。由于每个人的体验是不同的，对于艺术认识的差异肯定也很大。你是怎么看的？
李：有怎样的“心”就有怎样的画。“心”即“识”，是综合了各种知识和感受的潜意识和显意识。“心”和画之间是同构的，“心”是画的本源，画是“心”的物质化呈现。画把“心”储存起来，等待着有一天被观者读取。北宋画家范宽说“师古人不如师造化，师造化不如师心源”，可见“心源”是根本。
 我在创作的时候会进入“不由自主”的状态，那时候的我的“心”会对宇宙生命的气息有一个特定的判断与契合。我的画在什么地方铿锵慷慨？什么地方委婉婀娜？什么地方行云流水？什么地方切磋磨砺？一切都在瞬间判断。如果钝塞，那么就重新来过。
 中国画论首推“气韵生动” 。“气韵生动”就是要求画是“活”的，蕴涵在画面内的气息是流转而畅通的，这种气息所有的人都能感受到，只是受过训练的人会把潜意识提升到显意识，会感动和评论，而大部分人会在内心中默默地受影响。所以我常说，家里要挂好画，这样才能有好的气息，才会吉祥如意。好的作品 “气韵生动”，而不好的作品气息滞涩、阴晦、没有生命力，更甚者会消解观众的生命力。
对于艺术家来说，境界肯定有高低，内心对宇宙万物的感受也不尽相同，但只要是诚实地、真实地反映自己的生命体验，那么艺术创作的崇高精神性便会洋溢于作品之上。对于我来说，自己会有意识地去认识这样一些结构关系：画与人、人与自然、人与社会、人与人……虽然不一定能够透入宇宙的终极真理，但是可以接近宇宙的终极真理。艺术就是做这个事情的。
 记得在奥地利看埃贡·希勒的画，那些素描着色的人体非常美，所有的点、线、面完全凝结成生命的渴望，这种渴望超越了一般的色欲，冲刺着生命的临界点。在中国艺术家中可比之于徐青藤。拉斐尔的画也很美，气息甘甜，与中国的恽南田很相仿佛；达·芬奇的画我最喜欢，智慧的力量归隐在平和的结构之中，博大的情怀只现于纤丝的笑意，如果看八大山人的书法，他们的精神气质很像，很像。

刘：你说过：艺术是非常个人的事情，也是非常个性化的事情，个人的认识很难听得别人的意见，只能自己来判断。所以别人的意见可能会非常的善意，但是不一定正确，因为那是他的认识，不是我的认识。这和你一直提及的绘画的“私密性”有关联吗？“私密性”这个说法很有意思，非常有创见。
李：绘画的“私密性”其实就是自我修炼。对于我来说艺术创作的目的是提升自己的精神境界。我在近二十年的学习和创作中，风格一直在改变。二到三年总会变一次。这种改变也令很多收藏家感到头痛。实际上，我需要的私密性是创作的过程不希望别人分享，那是一个体验生命和生命流动的过程，不可被打断。私密就是惟有自己一个人在此生命过程中翻飞，感受快乐、悲伤、忧郁、彷徨……所有的东西，这最好在密闭的环境状况下完成，也就是说这种生命体验须要纯粹私密不被打扰。生命流动的过程，一部分会通过艺术家选择的介质记录下来，艺术家的精神也因此而凝固在这种介质之上。

刘：在你创作的时候，会被什么打扰吗？
李：没有什么可以打扰我的。是否“私密”完全在于自己的认识与把握。因为我不是职业画家，我有许多日常的公务要处理，工作比较杂乱，如何处理好工作与创作的关系的确是个问题。但一直以来，我把工作、生活和艺术创作视为一个统一体，它们彼此是不能被割离的。所以我会很愉快地面对各种事务，并把它们作为“私密性”的东西去体会。

刘：“私密性”的作品是否都是比较小幅的？大作品更具有公共性。
李：“私密性”讲的是创作态度和过程，画面大小要看艺术家的自身需要和工作条件。通常情况下通过小幅画面比较容易与内心对话。我在美国佛蒙特艺术中心搞创作时就有一位导师建议我把作品画得再小一些，这样容易保持“私密性”。比如保罗·克利的作品的幅面都非常小，但精神气质一点也不小。但是我的“私密性”作品有小型的，也有很大幅的，这几年创作的物质条件越来越好了，所以大作品就比较多。当然再“私密性”的作品最后仍需要与公众见面，与观众交流、对话，从而实现艺术作品“生命的圆满”。我愿意将“私密性”的作品发表出来以获得交流和对话的机会。

 

·我的神与气韵

刘：沈括《梦溪笔谈》卷十七《书画》有一段非常著名的论断：“书画之妙，当以神会，难可以形器求也。世之观画者，多能指摘其间形象位置、彩色瑕疵而已；至于奥理冥造者，罕见其人。如彦远评画，言王维画物多不问四时，如画花往往以桃、杏、芙蓉、莲花同画一景。予家所藏摩诘画《袁安卧雪图》，有雪中芭蕉，此乃得心应手，意到便成，故造理入妙，迥得天意。此难可与俗人论也。”这论述推及今天以及抽象画在中国的情境以及对于抽象画的欣赏问题，也非常合适。你怎么看呢？
李：宗白华先生曾经设问：中国绘画里所表现的最深心灵究竟是什么？它既不是以世界为有限的圆满的现实而崇拜模仿，也不是向一往无尽的世界作无尽的追求，烦闷苦恼，彷徨不安。它所表现的精神是一种“深沉静默地与这无限的自然，无限的太空浑然融化，体合为一”。这论述对于今天的抽象画来说也是同样。作为一个中国抽象画家，在精神上有天然的“天人合一”遗传基因。这种与生俱来和后天人生经历互相贯通，从而形成了我的抽象意境。我的艺术是指向自己内心深处的，为了完整而准确地表达内心的情感我需要运用许多表现手段，这些手段有从传统继承下来的，有从西方学习来的，也有自己摸索出来的，只要能为我所用就是好东西，我们没有必要去贴标签。
 的确，通常观众欣赏一幅画作，首先是从“形象”与“合理”来评判，对于“心”和“意”的领会，每个人都不同。我们所处的世界纷繁驳杂，然而本质却是一样的，规律也是相通的。许多人说看不懂抽象艺术，我告诉你，抽掉现象看本质就行了。如果还不明白，那就说明你具象的东西也看不懂。
 长久以来我一直遇到这样的尴尬，人们指着作品我问：“你说说这画的是什么？这个表达的是什么意思？”我常常无言以对。很多人的欣赏是基于具象思维。他将作品中的形象对应于生活中的具体形象。以2006年5月长假期创作的《五月的快板》来说，那是一组明亮色彩的快乐变奏。有一个朋友说很像洗衣板，于是一个诗化的命题就被幽默地消解掉了，我们还能得到崇高的美感吗 ？显然不能了。但我们还是可以找到欣赏抽象艺术的入口。这幅作品以横向的色条切分纵向空间形成跳跃的节奏感，这种跳跃的节奏感对应于快乐喜悦的心情，这也是系列内所有作品的逻辑结构。有了倾向性的画面结构后，附着在上面的所有色彩和肌理都成为变奏的华彩和理由。这是不变和万变的关系。实际上中国人对抽象艺术应该有一种天生的敏感，因为抽象形态的理论基础以及呈现方式和中国传统审美思想更能够沟通，所谓“得心应手，意到便成，故造理入妙，迥得天意”，就抽象画而言，意太在笔之先了，那为什么我们对抽象艺术的认识好象距离我们的日常生活比较远？有隔膜？主要还是缺少审美经验。看得少并不是我们不能接受，就像写实的作品从表面上看大家都能接受，因为它有一个形象，可以看像还是不像，可以看它的动作是表现什么意思，这个似乎看懂了，实际上不一定真看懂。因为画的背面有另外的意思，它的故事呈现的是一个时代、是一种精神，这种时代和精神你是不是读到了呢？不是人人都能读到。所以不一定能看懂。而面对一幅抽象作品，你可能会获得一种猛然间的感受，这种感受你全身心获得了，不管是快乐的还是郁闷的还是平和的，你非常直接地感受到了。但是由于你的审美经验不足，可能你没有确认它，你自己还以为没看懂，实际上你已经懂了。因为它很直接。没有什么玄的东西，就是凭你直观的感受。西方的抽象艺术经过一百年的历练之后，中国人较多地接触抽象艺术也是这十几年间，当抽象艺术的特殊表达语言突然出现在人们面前的时候，有困惑，有疑问，有非议，有争论，也有赞赏，这都很正常。在中国大陆，艺术家有系统地进行抽象艺术实践也就是二十多年的时间，可以堂而皇之地讨论和展示抽象艺术也只有十几年的时间，应该说抽象艺术在中国还是相当年轻的艺术。我们不要简单地把抽象艺术仅仅看成一种艺术样式，其实抽象艺术是一套完整的思维方法和表现方法，它是一系列更便于发掘人的本性的艺术方法。这些方法极大地推动和丰富了西方的艺术的发展，对于我们中国又何尝不是这样呢？

刘：对于画的气韵，你有什么看法吗？这个问题也是画家和评论家相当执著的。
李：五代荆浩解释“气韵”二字：“气者，心随笔运，取象不惑。韵者，隐迹立形，备遗不俗”(《笔法记》)。就是说，艺术家要把握对象的精神实质，取出对象的要点，同时在创造形象时又要隐去自己的笔迹，不使欣赏者看出自己的技巧。如此把自我融合在对象里，这样的形象就能让欣赏者有丰富的想象余地。为了达到“气韵生动”，达到对象的核心的真实，艺术家要发挥自己的艺术想象。这就是顾恺之论画时说的“迁想妙得”。一幅画要表现出内在神情，就要通过内心体会把自己的想象迁入对象形象内部去，这就是“迁想”；经过一番曲折之后，把握了对象的真正神情，而穿透了表面的具象，是为“妙得”。“气”是“自然存在的原动力”。气的微妙的变化，被哲学家们称为“神”，这就像沈宗骞所说的：“凡物得天地之气以成者，莫不各有其神。”“神”的字面意义含有“精神”、“精神本质”、“神灵”、“超自然的”、“不可思议的”、“生命力的律动”、“宇宙本质”等。曾子说：“阳之精气曰神，阴之精气为灵，神灵者，品物之本也。因其神灵，故不徒曰气而称之曰精气。”故中国哲学之“气”，既是万物产生之动力，又是万物生成运动之过程，以及万物生命之所在。气化流行，生生不息。人可以在心中体验宇宙那深微幽妙的化机，这种体验是活生生的具体经验，而不是单纯的理智投射，理智反倒被当做是一种“私欲”而加以摒弃，因为它削弱了人参与天地转化过程的真正能力。在这个超越过程中，人重新发现了他最为深刻的本质──而艺术家比起其他人来，在探索超出人类的感觉和认识范围的未知事物方面，要走得远得多，因为他们可以将自我置于体验的尽头──这里隐藏着艺术家所要寻找的秘密，因此他们意在于“道”而非在于“画”，在于“心”而非在于“目”。艺术家用艺术形式去探测、表现存在的隐秘本质，而且，在这种表现过程中，艺术不仅仅是艺术，更是人生的形式、人生的存在方式了，即在艺术创作中直指生命与本性，指向情感、冥悟、存在之思──直指体验的深层。换而言之，艺术家们侧重于对原初本真之在的把握，倾听“在”之音。待到这种自我生命与宇宙的大生命相交感之际，真的艺术创作才能成立。这就不是从表象上去看一件东西，而是将一切收纳在自己的体验之中而深味之。此时从吾人心性的沉思之中回味出来的东西，既非知识，亦非真实，而是智慧与真理。绘画中尚“理”的倾向：一个人的绘画创作，并不单单是为了自己表达情感的需要，更重要的是为了体验人与自然之间的内在共鸣。我们所看到的，也不只是一审美快感，而是作为天地间和谐的体现，引导人们遵循天地间的基本秩序。因此，艺术也具备了宇宙论与认识论的意义。

刘：那么你是如何选择并开始抽象绘画创作的？
李：我是1997年以后开始系统地抽象创作的，这是源自我意象性很强的油画《葬花》系列。我将尽可能“花”的意象归纳到极限是为了表现生命的无常与无奈，再美丽的生命最后还要归回为泥土去开始新的轮回。在绘画过程中我“葬花”的意象已不能满足我内心的追求，我画的“花”渐渐地悬浮起来，最终成为一组图形符号。朱其在评述这组作品时用了“虚空间”的概念，我很同意。此后几年里我将所有的作品都叫做《禅花》
 2003年我去美国创作、访问。说实在的美国的艺术并没有给我留下特别的印象，到是在佛蒙特创作中心我得以静下心来梳理思想并进行新的绘画实验。我做了近200件纸上和布上作品，主要探讨了抽象符号、形式空间（虚拟空间）与意象境界的视觉和心理关系。同时也尝试着色彩与意象境界的视觉和心理关系。这部分作品主要收录在《道——李磊2003》画册之中。
 2004年起我重点研究的是“人——自然——色彩——心理”的视觉结构关系，部分作品收录在《诗——李磊2004》画册之中。这时候我开始用写实的手法做人体雕塑，大部分是女性人体，我叫她们为“天使”，实际上都是在欲界中挣扎的精灵。

刘：谈谈你的《人文山水》系列。
李：《人文山水》系列是我生命体验又一次寻找到的新方式。
 我从20世纪80年代中后期开始的有意识地艺术创作基本上是一个闭门式的和自省式的创作——自己跟自己内心对话。重点是剖析自我，通过剖析自我寻找宇宙人生的真实。在当时我的状态跟社会思潮的关系不大，完全是基于纯粹精神领域的自我印证。
 前两年我开始从中国文化的角度反省自己的创作实践，因此有了《人文山水》这一系列的作品诞生。这里一个动因就是2004年去杭州参加上海春季艺术沙龙和杭州印象画廊组织的全国油画家写生活动。第二个动因是我开始意识到纯粹的精神反省缺少社会呼应。在这个过程中，我觉悟到自然和人文有相当大的对应性。精神境界的提升不应是空对空的，它应当在活生生的生命体上给予投射和反映，从自然境界中发现人的自我境界，这种境界可能是我们一直在追求的东西，存在于自然之中，既然如此，我们为什么不走进大自然呢？

刘：如果说《禅花》系列是纯粹的精神自省，那么《人文山水》系列则是自然人文的诗化呈现。从画面上看《人文山水》比之于《禅花》要华丽、世俗得多，但其精神气质和内在结构仍然是形而上的，只是比从前更人性化，更加平易近人了。从表面看“人文山水”系列在形式上是一种“降落”，实际却是另一种精神的“提升”。
李：在《诗》的画集其中收录了我的2003年－2004年的作品，那里已经有了《人文山水》的影子，我用《天堂里的色彩》作标题，这是一种心灵的色彩，与山水有关也并不完全对应。后来的《忆江南》、《意象武夷》、《醉湖》等就完全的诗歌化、音乐化、山水化了。

刘：在山水之中也可寻到“人文气息”。
李：中国古代诗、情、画、意是统一的。画山水并不是画真山真水，而是画心中的山水。
 人文气息是人的需要。为什么古人说要纵情山水？我们看到中国的山水诗都是借景抒情，本身是“情”，即“情绪”和“情怀”，由于面对和融入自然而“触景生情”。自然之中的景象勾发起一种情感，最后还是关乎“情”。此情此境界在中国文化中有丰厚的积淀。

刘：你有很多知音吗？
李：唐朝诗人陈子昂有一首诗“前不见古人，后不见来者。念天地之悠悠，独怆然而涕下。”真是百年孤独，千年孤独。我把这首诗选在自己的画集里了。

刘：那么你对于中国古典诗词应该有独特的欣赏角度和感知。
李：是的。李白，苏轼，李清照，辛弃疾都是我喜欢的诗人词人。在诗词之中你可以体会到很多意境，而且诗词具有音乐性，那是时间流程中的节奏变化造成的心理对应，抑扬顿挫以及词语关系都指向某种境界。绘画同样具有音乐性，同时这种音乐性的体会和发掘也在于欣赏者的水平和境界。诗歌的音乐性是预设的，而绘画的音乐性则完全视乎作者和观者的境界。

刘：那应该就是审美。
李：美对应的是精神愉快，或者说精神愉悦，美激荡了某种情绪，我一直期待着美与和谐。其实诗歌，音乐，绘画和饮食都是相通的。比如茶，就是自然精华，好茶清冽就是一种美；而酒相对而言是腐朽的，因为它要经过发酵。
 艺术家在平面或者立体的创作过程中如何表现自我，那么气韵生动就是美，是活的，和谐的，就是“真，善，美”。而那些不“本性”的东西则呈现出“假，恶，丑”，因为它抑止本性，不自然。而和谐就是自然的一个重要本质。

刘：在今天，“和谐”这个概念似乎在很多领域都得到表述和强调。
李：的确，现在提倡的“和谐社会”、“和谐世界”，我看还应该提倡“和谐人生”。“和谐”就是尊重个体，彼此认同，但还要有相对统一的行为规范。“和谐”在求同中存异是一种博大的胸怀。中国人应该多讲“和谐”。
 搞抽象艺术的，更多从主观概念出发，在图式上，处理方式上很容易进入到一种比狭隘的状态中。鲜活的东西从哪里来？实际上就是从现实生活的多样性中寻找自己感动的东西。比如有一次的写生活动题目叫“人文江南”，抽象艺术如何在这个题目里找到对应，最根本的是画面中对象和我内心的感动能够对应起来。第一个感觉是整体上的调子是绿；第二个特性是水，江南的水，在我的画面上我去寻找一种流动性的东西；第三个是“弥漫”，就是造型的不确定性。通过这三个元素的组合来寻找我心目中的人文江南。最根本的是画面中对象和我内心的感动能够对应起来，实际上即是以“本我”为主体，营构内心意象的表现图式，是一种精神潜意识的显现过程，是一种“和谐”。

刘：我知道你很热爱音乐，尤其古典音乐，创作的时候也会沉浸于音乐之中。抽象绘画其实是一种“视觉音乐”（Visual Music）。可以谈谈音乐和绘画之间的微妙关联，以及音乐和你，以及你的画之间的关系与相互感应吗？
 李：绘画是看上去是与音乐距离最遥远的艺术，但是对于绘画中音乐性的挖掘，可以揭示出艺术的泛音乐化倾向。瑞士抽象艺术大师PAUL KLEE就曾经专门“画音乐”。他曾在日记中写道：“音乐，对我，是爱的蛊惑。”他的父母亲是音乐家，妻子是钢琴家，他本人是个很有天赋的小提琴手，热爱巴赫和莫扎特，作画前必先拉一小时小提琴滋养心灵再开始，因此他画中的线条极富音乐感和想像力。KLEE在魏玛时的论文和讲义里也频频用到复调音乐、色彩和声以及乐谱等术语，创作出“复音音乐绘画”。最有意思的是他曾经说：“各种色彩并没有齐声歌唱，而像是分成了三个声部。”之后，他的作品构图越来越抽象，表现了出运动和姿态上更大的自由度，我想这和他的音乐悟认有很大关系。在他作品里，音乐以各种形态呈现，他的绘画作品也受到许多作曲家的青睐，反过来成为作曲家的创作源泉，因为他的画里可以看到音调，声韵律动的诗意，而且任何线条都是可以去倾听的。我认为绘画中的音乐或者音乐中的绘画是对于自然的感性抽象的结果，具有某种强烈的主观倾向。也许我们都应该不断自省，成为“有新的敏感的原始人。”
 其实音乐性在任何地方都是相通的，PAUL KLEE从纯形式思考的角度，穿透表象，直接触碰到“美”，纯洁的视觉上的美，作为一种形式更为根本的原质，这种美顺着灵魂的轨迹，贴附在人心，如同最伟大的音乐。这一点也可以用中国的“道”来印证。它的演化轨迹可以归纳为“意”-“象”-“数”，道在其间不断演化和流转的过程，无不渗透着音乐精神。“象”有数理运动和变化。而“数”成为支撑艺术的内在结构，并且“数”的演绎与变化，使得“乐”成为艺术的一种形式，从根本指向了真，善，美。

刘：你的画更多表现为一种对于纯粹绘画的本质研究。早期作品《禅花》中视觉形象带有更多的象征和隐寓，你似乎一直试图以某种东方关照与西方绘画形式在精神层面的结合。《禅花》系列成为一种东方智慧的意象，一种自我关照和反省的对象，去试图建构一个绘画形式的精神空间，形式构成与精神意象空间的结合。而比较近的作品反映出来对于形式与精神对应关系的淡化，意象空间转变为更加直观地表现绘画的痕迹，试图达到目击而道存的境域。
李：传统意义上的绘画形式构成画家与世界的间隔，通过这层间隔画家描摹、隐寓建构一个与之对应的世界。这种形式逐渐超越了世界本体，而阻碍了人类对于这个世界存在的直观感受。我已经淡化了早期作品中的形式的对应和隐寓关系，把形式间隔从艺术家和世界存在的关系中抽取出来，达到某种本质体验，这种方式接近与现象学的研究方式。进而在涂抹和描绘之间体会自然之存在，这种对于心、眼、手、物一致性，共时的努力，实际是对于绘画本质的直接关照。
 从学理上剖析，笔墨有三个层面，经历了一个不断完善与超越的过程。就过程而言，大体从只讲“骨法用笔”，到讲求“有笔有墨”；从只讲“意在笔先”，到兼讲“趣在法外”，到追求“无笔之笔”和对常规笔墨的超越。但笔墨一直是手段而并非目的，发挥笔墨是为了超越笔墨，对此，荆浩以“忘笔墨而有真景”为最高境界，石涛以“纵使笔不笔，墨不墨，画不画，自有我在”为依归。我一直把绘画或者创作活动看作是不可思议的体验，在这个体验过程中，在得到启发的时刻，把内心的幻象和对外部世界的体验结合起来。艺术家的内心真实、内心幻想，不仅在主题上、色彩上，以及限定实体的形状中显示出来，而且在创作的过程中甚至显示的更多。

刘：荆浩在《笔法记》中，对绘画的“似”与“真”作了严格的区分：似者，得其形遗其气；真者，气质俱盛。
李：“似”，只是表面的相像，没有内在的生命（“气”），而“真”却包含了事物内在的生命与本质。所谓：“须明物象之源。夫木之生，为受其性……”这已经有十足的艺术哲学的意味了──确立事物的“理”与“性”以企求得到宇宙之“真”。

刘：可以说，一切艺术的美，以至于人格的美，都趋向玉的美，内部有光彩，但这是含蓄的光彩，这种光彩是极绚烂，又极平淡。苏轼又说：“无穷出清新。”“清新”与“清真”也是同样的境界。你的抽象作品形式是当代的，背后却有浓浓的东方血脉。
李：艺术学是人学，艺术创作是人的再发现，不管是向内还是向外。
 抽象艺术是一种帮助我们向内发现自我的工具，它很难表现具体的事件和情节，但它表现人的情绪和意境却是便捷而直接的。中国传统文化讲天人合一、讲忘情山水、讲即心即道，强调主体对客体的主观认定，说到底就是艺术作品是作者内心思想的物质性外化，作品和内心是等价的、同一的。抽象画的创作源自画家的内在需要，旨在传达画家内在经验的真相及探索内在世界的奥秘。我把自己对中国传统文化的理解融会在作品里，所以我作品的精神完全是东方的，我思考问题方式也是东方的，我画的是中国抽象画。我的作品并没有因为具有较强的东方特点而成为国际交流的障碍，相反我在国外举办的几次展览都非常成功，国外观众觉得通过我的作品可以更深刻地理解中国艺术家的认识论和方法论，可以从另一条思想的路径达到精神的高峰。
 
 
刘：有一句话：位置决定一切。这里的位置有多层含义：地理的，心理的，时间和空间的，精神的……我们先从上海这个地理位置来说吧，上海的抽象绘画艺术在当代中国艺术的环境里是一道独特的风景，作为一个国际化并具有当代特征的大都市，抽象艺术正与这个城市发生着一种耐人寻味的关系。
李： 抽象艺术是一种艺术样式，也是一种文化形态。90年前，作为视觉艺术的革命，抽象艺术为西方文化开辟了更为广阔的发展空间。今天，抽象艺术在西方已经进入经典艺术的行列，而不属于先锋、前卫了。
 抽象艺术在上海形成思潮还是20世纪80年代以后的事，但发展非常快，可以说，目前上海的抽象艺术与国际是同步和接轨的，而且具有自己强烈的地域文化特色。上海抽象艺术具有两个优越的背景：一是上海开放的社会形态和心态以及与国际交流的相对便利，构成了上海之所以拥有中国最集中的抽象艺术创作人才和较多的抽象艺术活动的先天条件，比如近期举办的“上海抽象”大展；二是上海抽象艺术家都有意识地探索抽象艺术的东方精神和独特的艺术语言。心灵层面上的探索非常重要，尤其对于抽象画来说，心灵和精神是无极的，而上海的艺术家都比较独立、比较宽容，彼此尊重各自的研究和探索，上海的艺术家也不聚团，所以在学术上没什么流派和团体，大家比较专注于个人的艺术体验和内省。

刘：金阳平先生曾经给您写信，谈到“建立自己的血缘谱系”的问题，他认为世界很多国家都在建构主体性的血缘家谱，而我们的家谱很明确，就是中国的审美趣味，董其昌，徐渭一脉的文人画气质，后中国、后东方、后文人……建立自己的血缘谱系是我们前进方向。其实你的《禅花》系列和《人文山水》系列，无论从主题还是内容，都可以明晰地看到金阳平所说的中国审美气质与意境，而且画之血脉也跟中国传统有着紧密的相接，至于谱系，我发现你并没有过多去注意这一点。
李：我认为所谓谱系，跟历史、文明相比较而言，是一种人间的脉络，但是艺术来自于彼岸，来自于更高的地方，我希望我的艺术是能够经得住历史判断，当得起文化试炼的艺术，而不是作为一种时尚的当代艺术。这种意念其实在我的雕塑天使系列中也有所表现和思考。艺术作品的被接受程度，某种意义上说远比“艺术”这个字眼重要得多，在我们这个机械复制时代尤其如此。艺术本质上是非历史的，不断变换排列组合法则的艺术作品之间是不存在本质区别和断裂的，因而是永存的，是非历史的，或者说是绝对历史的。谱系在这里我认为有普世的现实意义，但不是最重要的。
你这么问的时候，也让我想到了本雅明对PAUL KLEE《新天使》的著名论段。《新天使》画的是一个天使看上去正要从他入神地注视的事物旁离去。他凝视着前方，他的嘴微张，他的翅膀展开了。他就是历史天使。他的脸朝着过去，背对未来，在我们认为是一连串历史事件的地方，他看到的是一场单一的灾难。这场灾难堆积着尸骸，将它们抛弃在他面前。天使想停下来唤醒死者，把破碎的世界修补完整。可是从天堂吹来了一阵飓风，它猛烈地吹击着天使的翅膀，以至他再也无法把它们收拢。这风暴无可抗拒地把天使刮向他背对着的未来，而他面前的残垣断壁却越堆越高直逼天际。这场风暴就是我们所称的进步。过去如同废墟，人们不去修补，天使也无可奈何，被历史进步的暴风鼓动着飞向未来。但过去、现在、未来不是断裂的存在，过去存在于现在的每一时刻，过去与现在则形成了未来。回忆如同重建废墟的过程，让过去散发出新的光彩。艺术也是如此，艺术就是重建历史废墟的一种回忆行为，看上去是在创造，其实是深沉的回忆。

 

My Tao

Liu Jing-jing: wang wei in the Six Dynasties said, “painting is not simply an art, it should be equated with the image in The Book of Changes”. According to it, painting should not be a pure skill, but a means to understand and express the nature just like the “image” in The Book of Changes. The Book of Changes is almost an ultimate book which abstracted the boundless universe.

Li-lei: in fact, this meant that art creation was equate with the mechanism of Tao, and painters were requested to create an art world which embodied the change rules for all things on earth and in which spirit could wander about at leisure. Painters must grasp the finite and surpass the finite, accord to thing’s natural tendency while try to create, focus on all the minor details while get out of controlling of the thing. Painter must have the true sense of humanism on the relationship between man and the society. On the relationship between man and nature, painter must have the sense of compliance and surpassing, or must be in situation that “man is an integral part of nature”, “forgetting everything”. “vigorousness, sincerity, and brilliance” in The Book of Changes represented a sound and valuable aesthetic thought. Artist should learn from The Book of Changes how to “expand to all the minor details” and “surpass the images”.    

Liu: among your works, there is an abstract oil painting series titled Tao. In order to arouse people to think about the meaning of life, you are looking for or you are practicing the “mixture of two tendencies”: to create a strength field by the means of clinging colorful straight strap or cross strap on the painting cover; to create an artistic conception full of humanistic implication and musical meaning by the dynamic assemblage of stroke, line and plane and the improvisational painting. You are always intoxicated with the Tao and the Dhyana of the Chinese philosophy. Your recent works represented your understanding on the essence of painting and your reflection on the image world for the contemporary art. Your study has already surpassed the simple form concepts, such as abstract image and concrete image, and entered into the essence of art.

Li: for me, painting is a kind of cultivation for self-surpass, as well as a means of self-improvement.
    The image created by artist is “reality”, what aroused watcher’s imagination is “unreality”. The imago world produced from the image is just the result of the combination reality and unreality. One character of Chinese traditional art is the theory of combination reality and unreality. The essence for Chinese aesthetic ideology is reality inside unreality, unreality inside reality, the combination of reality and unreality. The question of reality and unreality just is the question of world view in philosophy. In Zhuang Zhou’s point of view, unreality was more real than reality and unreality is the cause of reality, all things in world could not grow up if there was no unreality. Whereas, the Confucianists thoughts started from reality, “balance of outward grace and solid worth” referred by Confucius (Kong Qiu) meant to equally blend the inner structure and outward behavior. Mencius also said that fullness was beauty. Confucius and Mencius, however, didn’t settle on reality only, but to develop a marvelous artistic conception from reality: “fullness and brilliance is bigness, bigness with little care is saint, saint with uncertainty is supernatural being.” Saint with uncertainty was unreality or supernatural being, which could only be subtly appreciated, but not put into words, but not be imitated. Both Confucianism and Taoism considered that the universe was the combination of reality and unreality, or the combination of Yin-Yang in The Book of Changes. The world is changing, and the most remarkable expression of the changing world is the co-existence of life and death, the co-existence of unreality and reality. All things are flowing and changing in the vacant space. So Lao Tzu said, “For though all creatures under heaven are the products of Being, Being itself is the product of Not-being”, “in that it is empty, but gives a supply that never fails. Work it, and more comes out”. The article expression of this world view asked art to combine reality and unreality in order to reflect truly world. In the abstract art field, though artist abstracted the images, the feeling and the artistic conception contained in the painting are the same. Only turning reality into unreality, turning unreality into reality, can painting produce the endless meaning, can painting produce the deep and remote artistic conception. Da Chong-guang in Qing Dynasty said in “Painting Assemble”, “real scenery is clear, and the unreal scenery appears”, “reality and unreality grow out of one another, and the vacant is fine scenery”. The Tao series is just an attempt to explore the relationship between the philosophy image and meaning by the oil painting.

Liu: in your opinion, what is Tao?

Li: in “Tao Te Ching”, Lao Tzu said: “Within it there is a force, a force that though rarefied, is none the less efficacious”, “what is in its natural, pure state looks faded”. Confucianism called the natural, pure state as “honesty”. The Doctrine of Mean believed that the “honesty” of man was endowed by nature, and Tao is to follow up the real humanity and cultivate this kind of “honesty”. Therefore, the basic means to treat nature for man should be searched in the structure of man. The apriority outside the structure of man is not only unimaginable, but also is none of the business for the ultimate aim of man. In art, it’s obvious for the West to notice this point. Qian Zhong-shu quoted the west literature in “Record on Talking about Art”, “Paul Claudel said there are ‘anima ou l’ ame’ and ‘aminus ou l’ esprit’ in the nature of man; poem is the result of spirit rather than the result of heart, so at the moment of ‘inspiration’, ‘moi’ is here and ‘ji’ controls, reality becomes clear after all creatures disappeared, which is just similar to ‘un etat mystique’. ‘le mystere potique’ is the standard. The most perfect art must be the simple which show the real and go along with the supernatural being.” Compared with nature, man is tiny, the way for nature will present in the way for man, the world, and the universe at the whole is a holographic structure in which Tao is the ultimate rule.
 There contains “the sense of world” even in every small things. The sense of world, i.e. “theory of vigor contained in all creatures” of The Book of Changes: great vital force, full of vigor and vitality produces life and growth in nature; all creatures in the heaven and earth come into being by nature and involve into breeding. All the process was called creation. “Nature” and “vitality” are the highest targets to express for artist. Zhang zai pointed out in volume III of Say I-Ching: the universe meant heaven and earth; Change meant nature. What the meaning of the saint is that man must know nature firstly, then know the rule of nature. Only those who didn’t know nature think it unreal. Those who didn’t know Change couldn’t know the way for nature, those who didn’t know the way for nature couldn’t know the nature.
 In the “Secret on Nature”, Ding gao gave a full expression to the theory of “Nonpolarity(Wu ji)”, “Tai Ji” for Zhou Yi in the theory of painting: “on Nature, feeling goes first, then the drawing, last the vitality. Dividing Ying and Yang, confirming reality and unreality……establishing the chaotic world as a circle, then separating up and down which are the two apparatus, establishing the Five Mountains according to the five elements, all these were completed, then followed by fullness and brilliance”. “At first to draw a circle as the start of the Tai Ji and Wu Ji, and the circle is so chaotic that it is just like the world before the earth was separated from heaven, and heaven and earth aren’t established. There is no up and down, all creatures scattered here and there. Vitalities and images derived from it. Before the circle establishment, miraculous brightness interweaves with forehead, object alike produced.” He expressed that man face finished all transformations in the universe and keep the trace of such transformations, just as the structure of the Nature.
 In my opinion, the world is mellow and full, transparent, so is the life. There is an old saying: one thing goes smoothly, everything go smoothly. We should find out the inner rules of life which conform to the development of the universe through studying, thinking and disciplining ourselves. The course of painting is a process of communication with the universe, correspondence to the rules of the universe. At last, artist could enter into such a situation that his body and his heart can go free. Good works cannot be explained in words, but viewer will subtly appreciate the force which blows against the face. Something which is mellow and full, transparent, and vigorous will appear in the painting.
 When I was a child, I often flied in my dream. I flied by high and low, by left and right. Mountains, rivers and forests were sweeping past swiftly, and sometimes I could see some richly decorated jade palaces, all these scenery are vivid; later, I dreamed various beautiful colors which came from the deep and clean sea, there were huge creatures swimming in the sea and I was in the sea; more later, I dreamed a master led me into a Buddhist monastery, he asked me to kneel down to make a kowtow to a silk picture which was put on the desk. After doing this, I stole a glance to the silk picture and found out that it’s a Jesus picture. “Isn’t it the Christianism?” I asked the master surprisedly. “There is no difference”, answered the master. I understood suddenly.
 I don’t want to create anything, but I want to present something. The presentation is my mental experience, or my ideology experience. I hope to express my ideas by a certain way. There is no difference for me between abstract image and concrete image. I present the feeling of my inner heart through the concrete or invisible image. In different time and different space, I will have different ideas. My works are the record segments of my different ideas. They are just like the electrocardiogram, like the reflector. What they reflected is the angle and level for my viewing the world. It’s important for me to express what I want to say clearly, not the way of expressing.
 Perhaps that is the embodiment of Tao in my body.   

 

Liu: your painting makes me think about the “Altar City” of Mi Zong in Tibetan Buddhism. Your painting is like an “Altar City” which is a field to collect energy. Each line, figure and color has symbolic meaning which expressed the internal structure of the universe. It seems that your painting presented a situation which communicated with the universe. From the “Dhyana Flower” series to the “humanistic painting series and landscape painting series”， I can see that you have already opened up your scene and entered into an endless space.

Li: this is the first time that my painting is mentioned as “Altar City”. Indeed, the “Altar City” contains profound and subtle philosophy meaning.
 There was a behavior art works: two Tibetan Buddhism monks elaborately constructed a huge altar city with colorful sand. After a long time, an altar city which was exquisite beyond compare finished. While people kept on singing praises, the two monks destroyed the altar city and went proudly on their way with the colorful sand…… All sorts of feeling well up in my mind. So does the life. Even if making unremitting efforts, but at last all efforts come to nothing. For ordinary people, fate is unknowable, and fate can’t be controlled because it is unknowable; man has no other choice but meekly to accept the arrangement of fate. As a result, ordinary people become very sorrowful.
 As an artist, I hope to find out an unconventional way to get an access into the uncontrolled fate. I tried to experience and reappear each brilliance moment during the course of life. Therefore, article creation is my “direct-viewing life experience”. 
 
 

Liu: “direct-viewing life experience” should derive from man’s intuition. Because each person’s experience is different, the understanding on art is very different. Then what your opinion about this?

Li: what kind of painting depends on what kind of “heart”. “Heart” means “knowledge”. “Heart” is the integration of all potential consciousness and obvious consciousness. “Heart” is the same to the painting in the structure. “Heart” is the ultimate source of painting, and painting is the materialization of “heart”. Painting lay in “heart” for viewer’s understanding one day. Northern Song Dynasty painter Fan kuan said, “Learning from Nature is better than learning from ancestor, learning from heart origin is better than learning from Nature”. So “heart origin” is the essence.
 When I was painting, I often entered into such a situation that is beyond my control. At this moment, my heart would judge and agree to the spirit of the life in the universe specially. Where my painting should be sonorous and forceful? Where my painting should be mild and roundabout? Where my painting should be natural and smooth? Where my painting should be sharp? All these were decided instantly. If my heart was dull and blocked, then everything re-started again.
 Chinese painting theory stressed “vivid artistic conception”. “Vivid artistic conception” meant painting is “alive”, meant that flavor contained in painting was smooth and fluent. This kind of flavor could be felt by everyone, only those well-trained could transform their potential consciousness into obvious consciousness, could be moved and comment, while most people would be influenced in heart silently. So I always said that excellent painting should be hung in home, only in this way that good artistic conception could be produced. Excellent works are “vivid artistic conception”, whereas bad works are stuffy and obscure, even collapse viewer’s vitality.
 For artists, the feeling for the universe is various according to different article phase. So long as the painting faithfully expressed the true life experience of artist, the painting will be permeated with noble spirit. For me, I will consciously find out means to express the relationship: painting and man, man and nature, man and society, man and man……and so on, I try to get close to the ultimate truth of the universe though I could not understand completely it. Art is the process of attempt for getting close to the ultimate truth of the universe.
 When I was in Austria to admire Egon Schiele’s painting exhibition, I found that all the sketch bodies are very beautiful. All the stroke, line and plane could concrete the aspiration for life which goes beyond the ordinary colors and images and makes a spurt towards the critical point of life. His painting could be equal to Xu Qing-teng, one of Chinese artists. Raphael’s painting is beautiful and sweet which could be equal to Yun Nan-tian, Chinese artist. Leonardo da Vinci’s painting is my favorite. In his painting, force of wisdom concealed in the peaceful structure, profound passion appeared in the faint smile. His painting could be equal to pseudonym of Zhu Da in spirit and temperament.

Liu: you have said that art is very individual and very personal. Individual understanding could not accept others’ opinions and only make decision by artist himself. Others’ opinions may be goodwill, but not correct as these opinions aren’t my opinions. Does this have any connection with your mentioned “privacy” of painting? The word of “privacy” is very interesting and very creative.

Li: the “privacy” of painting is actually self-cultivation. For me, the object of article action is to increase my moral level. In my almost twenty –year studying and creation, my style is changing continuously. My style would change for two or three years. Many collectors feel headache about this change. In fact, the privacy I need is that I don’t want to share with others during my painting. The course of my painting is a course of experience of real life and life flowing and this process shouldn’t be interrupted by others. The privacy meant to experience all feelings by oneself in the painting, such as joyance, sorrow, depression, hesitation……and so on. All these should be finished in a closed circumstance. That is to say the life experience must be free of interruption, must be private. Part of the life flowing process will be recoded by medium selected by artist, and the spirit of artist will concrete on this medium.

 

Liu: is there anything that will interrupt you during your painting?

Li: nothing. Whether “privacy” or not depends on the way to understand and to control. I’m not a professional painter, and I have various daily official duties to deal with. How to deal with the relationship between work and painting is indeed a question as my work is rather disorganized. I regarded work, life and article creation as a unity and all these couldn’t be separated. Therefore, I will face all the matters with pleasure and I will experience all the matters as “privacy”.

 

Liu: whether are “private” works small? Whether are big works more public?

Li: “privacy” meant the attitude and the course for painting, big or small of the scene will depend on the need of artist and the work condition. In general, it’s easy to communicate with internal heart through small scene. When I was painting in the American Vermont Arts Center, a tutor suggested me to make it smaller because it was easy to keep “private”. For example, the scene width for the works of Paul Kelly is very small, but the spirit contained in them is profound. Some of my “private” works are small, some of them are big. In recent years, with the improvement of the material condition for painting, there are many big works. In order to realize the target of “success of life”, the most “private” works will still open to the public and communicate with the audience. I would like to published my “private” works to obtain the opportunity of communication with the audience. 

 

My spirit and artistic conception

 
 
Liu: there is a famous conclusion in 17th volume (painting and calligraphy), MengXi Bi Tan written by Shen Kuo in Northern Song Dynasty: “it’s hard to expressthe marvelous of the painting and calligraphy by concrete objects, but to appreciate subtly by heart. Most viewers could say something about the image, location, color and flaw in the painting and calligraphy, but it’s seldom that could understand the mystery in it. For example, Yanyuan remarked Wangwei’s painting, saying that Wangwei neglected the four seasons during painting, when drawing flower, he put peach blossom, apricot blossom, cottonrose hibicuous and lotus flower in the same scene. I collected a painting by Mojie, ‘Yuan’an sleeping on the snow’, in which were bajiao and snow. It’s just what the heart wishes his hand accomplished. It seems that Yuan’an obtained the will of Heaven, all this is hard to talk about with layman.” It’s suitable for this conclusion to apply to the issue of abstract painting’s position in China and the issue of abstract painting appreciation. What’s your opinion?

Li: Mr.Zong Baihua had asked: what’s on earth the deepest heart presented in Chinese painting? It’s neither the admiration of reality as the definite perfect world, nor the endless pursuit for the indefinite world, nor the fidgets or hesitation. The spirit it presents is “the integration of deep silence and the indefinite nature, indefinite space”. It’s same to today’s abstract painting. As a Chinese abstract painter, I have a natural inherent gene of “the situation that man is an integral part of nature”. The integration of the inherent gene and the acquired life experience forms my abstract artistic conception. The direction of my painting is deep heart. I need many ways to express correctly and completely my internal feeling. Some of the ways are inherited from the tradition, and some are learnt from the West and some are my grope. So long as they are useful, it’s no necessary for us to tag.
 In general, when viewers visiting a painting, they firstly judged from “image” and “rationality” and there are various appreciation for the “meaning” and “heart” according to different people. The essence of the world is the same and the rule is linked, though nowadays world is complicated. Many people said they couldn’t understand abstract art, but it’s ok if you see the essence through the abstract phenomena. If you still couldn’t understand, then you are the layman who couldn’t know of materialized art.
 I’m in embarrassment for a long time: people always asked me different questions pointing at my painting, such as what’s the meaning of this painting? What do you want to present in this painting? I often couldn’t answer. Many people’s appreciations are based on the thinking in terms of images. They tend to equal image in painting to concrete image in life. “Rhythm of May” created in the long holiday of May, 2006 is a set of joyful rhythm with bright color. Whereas one of my friends said it’s like a washboard. How pitiful a poetic title was misunderstood humorously, and how could we get the sublime aesthetic feeling? But we can still find out the entrance for appreciation of abstract art. The logical structure of the all the works in the series is the jumping rhythm formed by co-function of the transverse color bar and portrait space, the jumping rhythm is the correspondence of the joyful feeling. All the colors and textures clung to the scene became the reason and the flourish of the scene variation. This is the relationship between invariability and variability. In fact, the Chinese should have a natural sensibility on abstract art as the theoretical base and the express way of abstract art could communicate with Chinese traditional aesthetic thoughts. “What the heart wishes one’s hands accomplish, and the charm of the painting structure endowed by the destiny.” For abstract art, the feeling is very important and should go ahead of the brush. Why does our understanding for the abstract art seem to very far away our daily life? It’s mainly as the lack of aesthetic experience. We could accept though we saw seldom. We all could accept the true-life works professedly as the realism works has an image which we can see alike or not alike, we can guess the meaning from its behaviors. It seems that views understand the scene, in fact not really understand because there may be other meaning behind the scene. The works expressed an era or a kind of spirit. Do you really grasp the meaning? Not everyone could understand its meaning as they could not grasp it. You may acquire a suddenly feeling in facing an abstract painting. No matter what kind of this feeling, joyful, depressed or peaceful, so long as you acquired physically and mentally, you felt it directly. But as your aesthetic experience is not enough that you could not confirm it, you thought you didn’t understand the meaning. In fact, you get the meaning as it’s very directly and isn’t mysterious. West abstract art has existed one hundred years, whereas Chinese abstract art appeared only in ten years. It is natural that there are confusion, doubt, censure, argument, admiration when the special expression for abstract art appeared. In the mainland of China, it’s only more than twenty years for Chinese artists to systematically experience abstract art, and it’s only more than ten years to discuss and show abstract art stately. Abstract art is quite a young art in China. We shouldn’t regard abstract art as a model of art simply. Abstract art actually is a set of whole thought method and expression method, is an article means which is easier to dig out human nature. All these means greatly advanced and enriched the development of West art, and the same to the development of Chinese art. 

Liu: what’s your opinion on the artistic conception of painting? All the painters and commentators are quite persistent on this question.

Li: Jinghao in the Five Dynasties gave an expression of the artistic conception: “Qi meant that heart moved according to the brush and would not be confused by the images. Yun meant that image existed and trace was hidden.” That is to say artist should master the spiritual essence of subject, to find out the main point, to create image and at the same time conceal all the trace so that viewer couldn’t see the painting skill, to integrate artist into the subject of painting so that viewer have abundant imagination space. Artist need to give free rein to his article imagination in order to achieve “vivid article conception”, to get the effect of core trueness for the subject. That is “subtle imagination acquired occasionally” stated by Gu Kaizhi in talking about painting. Painter should put his imagination into internal image of the subject by heart feeling in order to present the inner meaning of the painting; after hard efforts, painter could master real expression of the subject and penetrate the concrete image in the scene. “Qi” is “the impulsion for the existence of Nature”. Philosophers called the subtle change of “Qi” as “spirit”. Just as Shen Zhongqian said, “all objects which come into being after acquiring Qi from the heaven and the earth have their own spirits.” The literal meaning of “spirit” contains the meaning of “energy”, “spiritual essence”, “gods”, “supernatural”, “unimaginable”, “the rhythm of the force of life”, “essence for the universe”, etc. Zengzi said, “Energy is the essence of Yang, soul is the essence of Ying, spirit is the origin of all the creatures. We call it essence rather than Qi because it is spirit. ” Therefore, the “Qi” in Chinese philosophy is not only the impetus for all creatures, but also the movement process for all the creatures, the root for all the creatures. “Qi” is the cause of life and growth in nature. Man could experience in heart the mysterious process of the universe. This experience is animated concrete experience, rather than purely rational projection. Intellect is abandoned as a kind of “selfish desire” because it weakens the real ability to participate the transformation of Heaven and Earth. During the surpassing, man re-found the deepest essence. Compared with other people, artists go farther in exploring the field more than human sense and scope of understanding because they put themselves in situation of the top of experience where hide all the secrets that artists are looking for. So the meaning of artists existed in the “way” rather in the “painting”, in the “heart” rather in the “eye”. Artists explored and expressed the secret essence by the means of art. During this period, art is not only an art, but a life mode, a way for life. Artists expressed directly life and nature, feeling, meditation and comprehension, in short the deepest experience. In another words, artists attach great importance to the master of origin, truth and existence, to the hearing of “being”. At the moment of interaction of self-life and the great life of the universe, the real art creation comes into existence. From now on, artists appreciate it by drawing everything in their own experience, rather from the appearance. What out of the artists’ meditation and comprehension are neither knowledge nor reality, but wisdom and truth. There is a tendency of worshipping “rationality” in painting: to experience the internal sympathy is more important than the need of expression his own feeling during the painting. What we saw is not only an aesthetic large charge, but also a materialization of harmony between the heaven and the earth which requires people to obey the essential order in the heaven and the earth. In this meaning, art possesses the universal meaning and the epistemological meaning.     

Liu: how did you choose and start your abstract painting?

Li: I started systematically my abstract painting after 1997. This derived from my “Burying Flower” series which has strong imagery. I concluded all the “flower” images to the utmost as more as possible to express the uncertainty and helplessness of life. No matter how beautiful the life is, it will return to earth and start the new transmigration in the end. During my painting, the image of “burying flower” could not satisfy my heart pursuit. The flower gradually was suspending and finally turned into a group of graphical symbol. In remarking the series works, Zhuqi used the concept of “void space”, I agree with him. I called all the works in the following years as the “Dhyana Flower”.
 In 2003, I went to the U.S for painting and visiting. Tell the truth, American art didn’t give me a special impression. It’s in the American Vermont Arts Center that I could calm down to comb my thoughts and engaged in new painting. I had almost 200 pieces of paintings on paper or on canvas, mainly of which explored the visual and psychological relationship between abstract symbols, form space (dummy space) and image world. At the same time, I tried to explore the visual and psychological relationship between color and image world. These works were embodied in the picture album of “Tao---Li lei 2003”
 In 2004, I focused on the visual structure relationship of “man-nature-color-psychology” and some of the works were embodied in the picture album of “poem—Li lei2004”. From now on, I began to engage in human body sculpture, and most of them were female bodies which I called “angels”. In fact they were eidolons struggled in the desire world.
 

Liu: please talk about your “humanistic and landscape painting series.

Li: in my life experience, I found out a new method in the humanistic and landscape painting series.
 Since the mid and the late 1980s, I began to go on article creation consciously which in general was made in the closed door and by self-examination. The key point is self-analyses and to find out true life of the universe by self-analyses. At that time, my creation state was entirely self-confirmation based on the pure spiritual field, and was none of the business of the ethos.
 I began to self-exam my painting experience from the angle of the Chinese culture in the last two years, then the humanistic and landscape painting series came into being. One of the impetuses for the change was that in 2004, I participated in the Shanghai Spring Art Salon and national oil painter painting organized by Yin-xiang Gallery, Hangzhou. The other impetus was that I realized pure spiritual self-examination lacked social echo. During this period, I realized that there were quite great correspondence between Nature and humanism. The improvement of spiritual level should not be correspondence of air to air. It should be the projection and reflection of living beings and to find out self-level of man from nature level. The level which we are pursuing may exist in Nature. Therefore, we should go into the Nature.    

 

Liu: if “the Dhyana Flower” series was purely spiritual self-examination, “the humanistic and landscape painting series” was the poetic expression of the natural humanism. “The humanistic and landscape painting series” is more luxurious and more common, but its spirit and internal structure are still super-organic, and become more humanity, more approachable. From the surface, “the humanistic and landscape painting series” is somewhat a “descent”, in fact is an “upgrade”.

Li: my works finished in 2003-2004 were embodied in the picture album of “poem”. There were already the trace of “the humanistic and landscape painting series” in this picture album. I used “the Color in Heaven” as the title which was heart color, was related to mountain and water, while not the pure the correspondence. Later works, such as “Recalling Jiang Nan”, “Wu-Yi Mountain Images”, “Drunk Lake”, and so on, were completely poetry, music, as well as landscape.

 

Liu: we can feel the “humanistic spirit”.

Li: from ancient times, Chinese painting was full of poetic and artistic conception. There were not real mountains and real waters in landscape painting, but the landscape in heart.
    The “humanistic spirit” was the need of human being. Why did the ancients say they hoped to indulge in landscape? All the Chinese poems on landscape were to express one’s emotion by using the scenery. The author was the emotion or the feeling. The author was moved by what he saw when he faced or was in harmony with nature. The sight in nature stirred up certain feeling. In the end all were related to “feeling”. This kind of feeling and this kind of artistic conception had profound sedimentary accretion in Chinese culture.

 

Liu: do you have many bosom friends?

Li: poet Chen Zi-ang in Tang Dynasty stated in his poem: “unprecedented and unrepeatable person; Heaven and Earth seems to drag, how sorrowful and tears out.” It’s really hundreds years of loneliness and thousands years of loneliness. I put this poem in my painting.

 

Liu: I think you should have your unique appreciation angel and apperception on Chinese classical poem.

Li: yes. Libai, Sushi, Li Qingzhao and Xin Qiji are my most favorite poets and ci poets. You could apperceive a lot of article conception in the lines of poems and ditties, at the same time, poems and ditties are musical. Poem and ditties are rising and falling in cadence, which are the psychology reflection of rhythm change during the time passed. Similarly, painting has musical nature, and the capability of apperception and appreciation for the musical nature depends on the level educated degree of viewers. The musical nature of poems was preinstalled, but the musical nature of painting depends on the level of painter and viewer.  

 

Liu: that should be the aesthetic sense.

Li: the correspondence of beauty is happiness, or pleasure. Beauty agitates a certain emotion. I’m looking for the beauty and the harmony. In fact, poetry, music, painting and food are the same in essence. Tea, for example, is the essence of nature. The limpid for good tea is a kind of beauty; and alcohol, on the other hand, is decayed as alcohol must experience ferment.
    How did artists express themselves in the course of painting by two –dimensional or three-dimensional means? Vivid spirit is beauty, alive, as well as harmonious. It is the true, the good and the beautiful. Those that are not “the nature” are false, evil, as well as ugly as they restrain the nature and they are unnatural. Harmony is an important essence of nature.

 

Liu: nowadays, the concept of “harmony” seems to be expressed and emphasized in many fields.

Li: that is true. Today it is advocated “harmonious society”, “harmonious world”, I think we should advocate “harmonious life”. “Harmony” means to respect individual and identify each other, at the same time to adhere to the relative unified norm of conduct. “Harmony” is a broad and profound mind in seeking common ground while reserving differences. The Chinese should often advocate “harmony”.
 Those who devoted themselves to abstract art easily started from the subjective evaluation, and easily went into the relative narrow condition on the diagram and the handling. Where did the fresh and alive goods come from? Actually, they came from the diversity in the real life. For example, I ever took part in a painting activity name “Humanistic Jiang Nan (regions south of the Yangtze River)”. How could the abstract art find the correspondence in this topic? The essential way is that the subject in the scene can meet with the sensation in heart. Firstly, the general tune is green; secondly is the water of Jiang Nan, I presented in my painting something fluid; thirdly is ‘diffusion’, that is the uncertainty of the image. I’m just looking for the humanistic Jiang Nan of my heart through the combination of the three elements. The essential way is that the subject in the scene can meet with the sensation in my heart. In fact, the process of constructing inner heart image on the basis of “thing-in-itself” subject is an appearance of spiritual subconscious, is a kind of harmony.

 

Liu: I know you have deep love for music, especially classical music. You will be immersed in music when you were painting. Abstract painting is actually a kind of “Visual Music”. Would you please talk about the subtle relationship between music and painting, the relationship and inter-induction between you and music, between your painting and music?

Li: it seems that painting is the art which is the farthest away form music. But so long as you tap musical nature in painting, you can explore the tendency of pan-music in art. Switzerland abstract maestro Paul Klee “paint music” specially. He said in his diary: “for me, music is bewitchment of love”. Before painting, it’s necessity for him to play the violin for an hour in order to nourish his heart. Abstract composition of his painting expressed more freedom on move and posture. This should attribute to his musical comprehension in a great extent. We can hear every line in his painting. We must be a “sensitive primitive” when facing music.
 Paul Klee was a professional musician and a music practician. So the example of Paul Klee was relatively unique. For me, music is a kind of “aid-reason”. By studying maestros’ music, I learnt their control over the music structure and its correspondence. Not long ago, I heard German Dresden Philharmonic’s play. Beethoven’s “the Fifth Symphony: Fortune” and Bolamus’s “the Forth Symphony” made me understand deeply the difference between the two maestros. The structure of “the Fifth Symphony: Fortune” was very rigorous, and the segment went forward one by one. The strength was accumulating with each segment’s acceleration. It mixed various musical elements like a snowball and rush to the ultimate break-out point (climax point) forcefully. The spirit of “the Forth Symphony”, however, was relatively loose. Its whole strength was relatively weak though the skill of it was magnificent. In fact, strong or weak of the strength depended on the internal structure. For viewers, music or painting is a kind of “stimulation”. The jump of musical note can arouse body reaction, can bring about large charge. Just as acupuncture and moxibustion beat certain points which belong to a reflection area, excellent music could get through passages in the body, make blood and Qi smooth, so the painting. Compared with music, the “stimulation” of painting to the viewer is relatively at random as music of painting completely depends on the article conception of author and viewer, whereas poetic rhythm and music note are preinstalled. Which color or which line you will catch at the first sight is different according to different experience of viewer. The music and the “stimulation point” of the abstract painting are more essential, more pure because they aren’t restraint by story plots and images, just as happened in sketch painting.
 Before my painting, I like to listen to Tibetan music “Auspicious highest Heavens”. After hearing, a senior West art staff said it’s same to their presently fashionable music. I told him it’s the West learning from China. In fact, “Auspicious highest Heavens” is not only music, but a kind of “incantation” which gets through passages in the body, and makes blood and Qi smooth, so that all the obstacles and blocks are resolved in music mentally and physically. It seems that human body is in the harmonious situation. It’s a good beginning for me to paint in such position.       

 

Liu: most of your paintings expressed the essential study on pure painting. The visual images in your early works “the Dhyana Flower” had more symbolization meaning and concealed meaning. It seemed that you were trying to combine certain orient correspondence and west painting form on spiritual level. “The Dhyana Flower” series was an image of the orient wisdom, an object of self-correspondence and self-examination, a spiritual space in which to build a kind of painting form, as well as a combination of form structure and spiritual image space. Your relatively new works reflected the desalination of the corresponding relationship between form and spirit, reflected the trace of transforming image space into direct expression painting.

Li: traditionally, painting form constituted the distance between painters and the world. Form this distance, painters depicted, metaphorized and built a corresponding world. Such form gradually surpassed world noumenon and hindered human being to feel directly the world. I have already desalinated the form correspondence and metaphor relationship, and extracted the distance from the relationship between artists and world-being in order to acquire some essential experience. This method was similar to the way of studying in Phenomenology. Artists can feel the existence of nature during the course of scribbling and depicting. The unanimous and simultaneous efforts for heart, eye and object are in fact the direct correspondence to the essence of painting.
    From the aspect of scientific principle, painting and writing could be divided into three lays, and become perfected and surmounted. For the process, there are three periods. In general, from the period of “focus on framework only” to “focus on color and brush”; from “meaning before brush” to “also focus on interest out of law”, and at last to “bush without brush” and surpassing conventional painting and writing. Painting and writing is always the means rather than the end, the object of using painting and writing is to surpass painting and writing. Jinghao regarded the situation of “leaving real scenery while forgetting painting and writing” as the highest degree. Shitao regarded the situation “even brush is not brush, oil is not oil, painting is not painting, I still be there” as his destination. I always looked painting activities as a mysterious experience. During this experience and at the moment of being enlightened, I could combine the idol in my heart and experience of outside world. Artists’ inner reality and inner illusion could not only be expressed in topic, color and the form of restricted entity, but also be showed in the period of creation.      

 

Liu: Jinghao in his book made a strict distinguish between “similar” and “real”: similar meant that to get its image only while lose its Qi; real meant that to get both Qi and image.

Li: similar is just appearance likeness and has no inherent vita (“Qi”), whereas, real contains the essence and inherent vita for things. So call “must understand the origin of image for things. The birth of wood is the result of nature……” has the article philosophical meaning completely—to establish “essence” and “nature” for things so as to get the “truth” for the universe.

 

Liu: it can be said that the beauty for all arts, even the beauty for moral quality is similar to the beauty for jade which has implicit luster inside. This kind of luster is most gorgeous and most pedestrian. Sushi also said: “freshness comes from infinitude”. “Freshness” is similar to “purity and truth”. The form of your abstract works is contemporary and the background is orient traditional culture.

Li: the study of art is the study of human being, and the art creation is re-discovery of human being, no matter internal or external.
    Abstract art is a tool which helped us to discover ourselves. It’s difficult for abstract art to express concrete events and process. However, it’s convenient and direct for abstract art to express emotion and artistic conception of human being. The theory that man is an integral part of nature, and the theory of indulging oneself in landscape, as well as the theory that heart is Tao, are all focus on the subjective cognizance of object. In short, article works is materialization of author’s internal thoughts. Works equal to heart. The origin for abstract art creation is the inner demand of author aimed to convey the truth of painter’s inherent experience and mystery of discovering inner world. I blend my understanding on Chinese traditional culture into my painting, therefore, the spirit of my works is entirely oriental, and the way of my thinking is also oriental. What I drawing are Chinese abstract paintings. My works has strong oriental character which wasn’t the obstacle of international communication. All my exhibitions I hold abroad were very successful. Foreign audience believed that they could comprehend deeply the epistemology and methodology of Chinese artists through my paintings, as well as they could reach the spiritual climax from another thought path.
 

Liu: there is a saying: position decides everything. Position here can be understood from various angles: geographical, psychological, time and space, spiritual, etc. The location of Shanghai, for example, Shanghai abstract painting is the unique scenery in contemporary Chinese art circumstance. As an international metropolis with the contemporary character, there is a thought-provoking relationship between abstract art and Shanghai.

Li: abstract art is a kind of art form, as well as a cultural form. Before 1990s, as the revolution of visual art, abstract art pioneered much wider development space for the West culture. Today, in West, abstract art belongs to classical art, rather than fashion art or pioneer art.
    It’s after 1980s that abstract art was popular in Shanghai. Abstract art developed very fast. It can be said that present Shanghai abstract art synchronize with international abstract art and linked with international abstract art, at the same time, Shanghai abstract art has its strong regional cultural character. There are two advantages for Shanghai abstract art: one is that Shanghai open social modality and psychology, as well as relative convenient communication to international society formed the congenital advantage why Shanghai has most abstract artists and more abstract art activities, for instance, “Abstract Shanghai” exhibition held recently; the other is that Shanghai abstract artists consciously explored the oriental spirit for abstract art and unique article language. It’s important for spiritual level exploration, especially for abstract painting, heart and spirit is endless. Shanghai artists are comparatively independent and tolerate, they can respect the study and discovery each other. Shanghai artists are not grouped, hence there is no genre and group academically, Shanghai artists relatively concentrate on individual article experience and self-examination.
       

Liu: Mr.Jin Yangping had written to you. On the issue of “building the consanguinity genealogy”, he thought that many countries in the world were building principal part of the consanguinity genealogy, whereas our genealogy was simple and it was the Chinese aesthetic taste, the literary temperament painting by Dong qichang, Xu wei, etc, and post-Chinese, post-orient as well as post-literary…… To build our own consanguinity genealogy is the direction for making progress. No matter the theme or the content in your “Dhyana Flower” series and “the humanistic and landscape painting” series expressed obviously the Chinese aesthetic taste and artistic conception mentioned by Jin yangping, and the spirit of painting was closed to the Chinese tradition. As to the genealogy, I noted that you didn’t pay more attention to it.

Li: in my opinion, compared with history and civilization, the genealogy is a kind of skeleton of the world. Art come from paradise, from higher place. I hope my painting could stand up to all tests, could be tempered by culture, rather than be contemporary art as a fashion. Such idea had been thought over and been expressed in my sculpture “Angel” series. The accept degree of article works is much more important than the wording of “art” from certain meaning, especially in our mechanical replication era. The nature of art is non-historical, or absolute historical. I think genealogy has universal realistic meaning, but it is not the most important.
    Your question made me think of the famous remark on Paul Klee’s “New Angel” commented by Benjamin. On the scene of “New Angel”, it seemed that an angel was leaving from what he was staring at absorbedly. He gazed ahead, his mouth opened slightly and his wings spread. He was the angel of history. His face looked to the past, and his back looked to the future. What he saw in the place filled with series historical accidents was a single disaster. The disaster put together all the skeletons and threw them in front of him. Angel wanted to stop to wake up the dead and mended the cracked world. A gust of hurricane from the paradise blew the wings of angel so violent that he couldn’t collect fragments of the world together. The hurricane blew angel to the future he was against undisputedly, and the debris in front of him was higher and higher, and soaring into the clouds. The hurricane was so-called progress. The past is just as the debris which was blew by the hurricane of historical progress into the future. If human being didn’t mend the debris, angel also felt helpless. The past, the present and the future existed continuously. The past was in each moment of the present, and the past and the present form the future. Recalling was similar to the process of rebuilding the ruins and the process of throwing off new luster of the past. So does art. Art is a recalling of building historical ruins. On the surface, the process of painting is a kind of creation. In fact, it is actually a deep memory.